144: The One About Getting Your SLPD
TRANSCRIPT
[00:01:00]
Venita Litvack: Today, I'm joined by Sheree Dodge, chin and assistive technology consultant for a public school district in Portland, Oregon. She has a clinical doctorate in speech, language pathology, and 20 plus years of experience helping children, educators, and families develop speech and language skills.
She began her blog, super power speech in 2008, with a hope of engaging other speech, language pathologists, and passing on ideas and resources. The blog is now recognized as one of the first SLP blogs in the world. Wow. And has been nominated for multiple [00:02:00] awards aside from flying around and trying to save the world.
You can find her reading, running, or eating dessert. Now that we've got all that covered, let's get started. Hi Sheree. Thank you so much for coming today. I'm glad we were able to finally make this work.
Cheri Dodge Chin: Hi there. It's really great to be here with you today and thank you so much for letting me come on your awesome podcast.
Venita Litvack: I am so grateful. You're here. So we covered where you live, what you're doing now. Can you tell us a little bit about how you got
Cheri Dodge Chin: to where you are today? Let's see, I would say back in the early two thousands, I started reading some blogs and most of them were about saving money and being a parent and I had young kids at home.
And so I liked the idea of saving money. And I liked getting to know some parenting techniques as well. And really spending a lot, probably too much time reading other people's blogs. And my husband was like, what are you try that you haven't do that too. And so I was like, okay. And so I started [00:03:00] blogging and most of my early blogs, or, just generic, a little bit about speech, a little bit about parenting, a little bit about saving money.
And then over time they just became more and more. Speech related. And eventually a few years later, I found a tribe of other people who were doing the same thing. And it got me really excited about the whole field of social media and speech pathologists were having an impact on the rest of the world.
Venita Litvack: I love that. And I'm curious, just on a little side note, did you start your blog with your identity revealed or did you do that later on?
Cheri Dodge Chin: Oh, no. I probably blogged for 10 years under the pseudonym, just my initials. I did not reveal my identity for a long time and it was actually. I had to go to my group of other fellow bloggers, some of whom had revealed their identity and some of who had not, and be like, I don't know what I should do.
I don't know if I should reveal it or not. I don't want my work to know what I'm doing. And [00:04:00] ultimately they were really supportive. It's whatever you want to do. But I decided that if I wanted to get my name out there more and. Possibly get some gigs, speaking and presenting around the world, which is a huge goal of mine.
People needed to know who I was. And so I started revealing my identity at that.
Venita Litvack: That makes sense. Yeah. I was surprised to hear that from another blogger, maybe like a couple of years ago on the podcast. And it's crazy saying that a couple years ago that the podcast has been around that long, but I know you can relate with having your blog around that long, but anyway, she said that she did not reveal her identity for quite a while, until some other SLP bloggers did as well.
So that's a cool fun fact. Let's talk about. The doctorate and a speech-language pathology. I don't know the percentage of speech-language pathologist that actually have their doctorates. Do you?
Cheri Dodge Chin: Nope. I have no idea. They just feel like it's getting more because it's getting [00:05:00] testable. A lot of programs are well, first of all, the clinical doctorate is just a new doctorate.
It's probably only been around for the last 10 years or less. And And schools that are starting to incorporate it are realizing that they want to have students from all over the world. Really. So a lot of the clinical doctorate programs that are popping up are either completely online or mostly on line.
And with that, there's been more and more a desire for people to go back and get their degree because they're like, wow, I can do this without needing to move and quit my job for five or six years with. I would have to do if I wanted to get a PhD,
Venita Litvack: right? Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. So let's talk about who is a good candidate for getting an SLP.
Cheri Dodge Chin: So I have been proved wrong multiple times on my advice, but I will tell you what I advise. And then I'll tell you some people [00:06:00] who have defied that instilled a great so my advice is someone who's at least 10 years into the profession understands what speech pathology is, has gotten over all that initial imposter syndrome, which, comes with any new job.
And is starting to feel passionate about one particular topic. It is for someone who maybe has a dream of getting into teaching higher education, or just learning more about research. One thing that I found that was really useful is I started my degree almost 20 years after I'd finished my master's.
And as you could probably imagine when I was doing my masters in the late nineties, nothing was online. If I wanted to find research, I had to physically walk to the library, go through the card catalog and look up journal entries, and then Xerox them on the copy machine. So I knew that so much had changed since that time, but I didn't know how to access it or how to really look into it.
And I felt the grad students that I [00:07:00] would supervise, cause I had a lot of grad students interns over the years that they came in, just knowing so much more about current research and how to look up research than I had ever learned. So all that to say, I feel like it is something that someone who's a little bit, into their profession and has some experience is a great candidate, but But in some ways, the people who are even further into their professional, like me, it was a huge jump and a huge learning curve.
But I feel like we weren't even more because we weren't how to do like online searches, which the younger grads didn't even, they knew how to do that. They've been doing that for their, their master's degree. So that was not a big change for them. Some other things that I think make a really good candidate.
I personally think that if you have children that they are not little makes you a good candidate. So someone who either has no children or grown children, or in my case, my kids were teens and they were able to take care of themselves. So I didn't have to like worry about bedtimes and this and that.
And then I think [00:08:00] another person that makes a good candidate is someone who is just really interested in learning a lot. And isn't going to be a I already know all the answers and isn't going to be swayed by just what people might be saying on social media, but wants to get in there and dig down into, learn how to do research and dig down into the evidence.
Now that said there are a number of people that I have known in my program who had none of those things. They were straight out of their CFY. They had young kids and they still did great. And for them, this was just one more stepping stone towards their ultimate career. And I think they probably thought it was more challenging because they had to deal with things that I didn't have to deal with.
But for them it was just the right time in their particular lives and they did great. And they, they came out feeling really good about what they did and when they did it.
Venita Litvack: Yeah. Thanks for sharing both of those perspectives. So what is the difference [00:09:00] between the clinical doctorate and a PhD in speech language pathology?
Cheri Dodge Chin: So for me, when I was looking into. What it looked like I would need to do for the vast majority of PhD programs was quit. My job, move somewhere to a university with a, a professor who was studying what I wanted to study at which in my case was augmentative communication and communication partners.
And then study with them or, four or five. Yours. And maybe the degree would be paid for through the university, by me doing research and TA, but there was no chance of me being able to work my regular day job, which was not possible for me. My husband. Disabled. And he has been unable to work for the last 10 years.
I have two kids at home. I have a mortgage. I got a lot of reasons why I could not, just pick up and move in and get rid of my [00:10:00] income for five or six years. Whereas the clinical doctorate programs that I looked into offer. Programs that they said you can do while working full time. And we could, it was weird.
It was very challenging, but we could that it was primarily or completely online. So I was able to keep my family where they were and. One other thing that was great about the programs is that even if you were working full-time which again, most of us were any classes that you needed to do were primarily asynchronous or held on a weekend so that it didn't conflict with your regular work schedule.
And then a lot of people were able to do their, what they call the capstone. For me really turned out to be more like a dissertation with the population they were already working with. So many of the people that were doing their research were able to use their same students, that they were working in the schools or their clients, that they had a private practice which is something that wouldn't would most likely not be possible if you were doing a [00:11:00] full PhD program.
And in addition to all that the clinical doctorate. If you go full-time, it takes two to three years, which of course is a big difference between a five to six year PhD program that most other people I know have had to be a part of.
Venita Litvack: Yeah. Thank you for sharing the differences between both of those.
So why do you think that it is beneficial for speech-language pathologist to consider getting an SLP?
Cheri Dodge Chin: For me, it was really useful. Like I said before in that I had been out of school for so long and so many things had changed. So it was really important for me to get to know how to look up evidence.
I had to look up research What evidence base even means? I think that was one of the main reasons I even started looking into the program is because so many people on social media were talking about is that evidence-based, is that evidence-based then I was like, I don't even know what evidence-based means.
I don't know how to look up the research. I don't know how to get articles when I don't have any [00:12:00] affiliation with a university library. And so it was really important for me to word how to do those things and to be able to come up with a question to a research question that I could even just use with my own clients.
What is my student experiencing? What do I think might help them? How could I test to see if that helps them and how could I come up with of. Even if those were things that I never published just to help my clients on an individual basis, I felt was really important. And I wondered if people who were new to coming out of grad school were already getting this.
And I was just going to be doing a makeup session for the years that I'd lost. And what I found was that the other people in the program who were newer grads, And had gotten their masters in the like 2000 tens. Also didn't know a lot of this information. And so I felt like they were also getting a lot of great things about research from my program that said, from what I understand, every clinical doctorate program is [00:13:00] quite different from every other one.
Alisha doesn't have some standard that they need to go by. So my program really was very much research-based. Whereas what I understand is some of the other clinical doctorate programs are one of them that I've heard of is like a masters on steroids where you're getting. Level to about all of the typical speech pathology topics or one that really focuses more on the business side of speech pathology, which is not something that, most master's programs are going to give.
So I think that every single clinical doctorate program at this point is very unique. And anyone who is interested in getting one really needs to research that particular program and figure out what is their specialty, what are the classes you'd be taking? And is it worth, that particular is your focus aligned with the focus of that particular program?
Venita Litvack: I like the idea of the business one, because that is definitely not something they cover in [00:14:00] master's programs or at least, where I went.
Cheri Dodge Chin: Yeah, for sure that one of the programs that was doing that was one that I very much wanted to go to actually. But Ultimately, I decided not to pursue that particular degree just because of money.
The tuition for that program was just out of my range.
Venita Litvack: Yeah. Can we talk about that a little bit? The tuition costs scholarships. Is it feasible for people? I think goodness paid off my loans two years ago and it like the thought of going back to school and having loans, again, just feel so irresponsible.
So I'm just curious what is it like to get your doctor?
Cheri Dodge Chin: It is not cheap at all. The range of costs I've seen for a full program ranges between like 35 and $65,000. I went to one of the cheapest programs that I could find, like I said, and that was still probably a good $35,000.
And I'll tell you how people paid for it within my cohort. First of all, the reason I was able to do it is because I've [00:15:00] had very unexpectedly found out that I received an inheritance that would cover more than half the tuition. And I was like, oh, what do I do with this money? As do I, redo the kitchen?
Which was a real possibility, do I put it in my kids' college account? Which of course is a wonderful thing to do or do I go back to school myself, which is something I had been considering. And ultimately I decided to go back to school myself. And then the rest of the tuition, we were able to save for it.
And pay for it. So I did not have to take out any loans. Other people in my, quite a few people in my program, I definitely took that well, and they're going to be paying for those loans for a long time. There were a few people in the program that had really generous employers that gave them very substantial tuition, reimbursement that paid for a very large portion of their That was not my circumstance, but there definitely were some people that had most of their degree paid for by their employer.
There was one or two people that their parents, even though they were grown adults, their parents [00:16:00] are like, Nope, I, we love this idea and we're going to support it. And I think let's see. I think those were, yeah those were the ways that it got paid for. A lot of people did take out loans.
Oh, the last way, was there a few people who had private practices that I think, I don't know, tax laws at all, but I think we're able to write off most of the expense for it because of their private practice. But again, don't quote me on that because I am not in a county.
Venita Litvack: That's really fascinating though.
It would be interesting to hear a little bit more about that. I'm going to look into that. Thanks for sharing. What about the GRE? Did do most grads or doctorate programs require a new GRE if you've been out for a while, did your program require.
Cheri Dodge Chin: No, my program definitely did not require it and most did not require it.
I think a lot of programs realized that was going to be a really significant barrier for people going back to school. And I honestly can't think of a single [00:17:00] program when I was looking at requirement. And now since the pandemic, a lot of universities aren't even required a standardized assessment for undergrads.
So my guess is any school that did have that requirement has probably dropped it at this point as well. Yeah.
Venita Litvack: Good. And you said that one of the big reasons that you went back was to learn more about. Evidence getting access to evidence. What does evidence-based actually mean? How do you access research now?
Just curious.
Cheri Dodge Chin: My favorite now is literally to two things, one Google scholar, because I think it's amazing and. Didn't even know much about it before, which is silly because everyone can have access to it. And another, the second main one I have is through Attia, their website has just, oh my gosh.
When I started my grad program, there were all sorts of evidence maps that had a big coming soon. Coming soon. And in the it's been like five years, maybe since I started my program here just explode. You can find [00:18:00] so much on the Asheville website. And as much as Attia is, a frustrating organization in many ways, the amount of time and money they've put into making accessible research, I think is just phenomenal.
Because you can find so much. And then in addition to all of those things, I I now have alumni access to basically any journal in the world. So if neither of those things work, I can ask for an interlibrary loan through my alumni access through my doctorate program.
Venita Litvack: Okay. That's good to know. I don't think I knew about Google scholar and I like you.
I remember Ashleigh was developing those evidence maps and it kept saying coming soon, but I don't think I ever got any notice that they were complete. So that's great to
Cheri Dodge Chin: know. No, you never got any notice. You just had to keep looking. And because I was in the doctorate program at the time, I had to keep looking.
And like I said it's phenomenal. I'm, I've been really. Okay.
Venita Litvack: Very good to know. So tell us a little bit more about your experience in getting an [00:19:00] SLP.
Cheri Dodge Chin: So I started back to school, very nervous. It had been nearly 20 years. I didn't know what I was exactly getting into. They put us together online for some, get to know you activities and tell you more about the program.
And being the social media person that I am. I immediately started a face group, Facebook group for our COVID. Which then most of the people in the cohort joined and we ended up just completely hitting it off. I understand that it's true of a lot of different cohorts, but I know that for me, it was huge.
We could ask each other questions. We could complain. We could, ask for each other to edit or papers or. And then we actually, my program was one where you traveled to the location for three different weekends during the two and a half years that you were in the I graduated quote unquote early in two and a half years.
Most people took three or and so we traveled to the [00:20:00] location. For three different weekends and got to know each other in person. And again, I felt like that was just amazing. I feel like programs that don't offer that the students are really missing out on a really important to know. Anyway all that to say.
I really found a great group of people and we in some ways, suffered through it together and supporting each other through this program where we could ask each other questions, figure out what research meant and come up with. Questions, real legitimate clinical questions that we had that we wanted to solve through single case research design that would affect our very own clients.
And then from there, we came up with proposals for our research and had to go through the whole proposal, IRB, do the research, write it up, defend it. All of those things. And have been part of a work to me was really important because we could, people from my own cohort, came to [00:21:00] my defense and supported me through that.
So that's not exactly what you asked for that. That was the quick down and dirty two and a half years of my life. Yeah.
Venita Litvack: I'm glad that you shared that perspective because you already pulled us a little bit about your experience, but I liked the idea that you had a cohort that you could bounce ideas off of, and just go through the experience together.
Is that not always the case in some of the doctoral programs?
Cheri Dodge Chin: So I'll tell you what I'm doing right now. I have started on a, an educational doctorate. This last month I started and a cohort and it is very different because we never got the names of the people in the cohort. We never had any kind of introduction activities.
And I can already tell, even though I'm only my second month in what a different experience this is going to be because of. The kind of lack of comradery that I can, that just doesn't happen when the university doesn't [00:22:00] start out by trying to make you into a cohesive team.
Venita Litvack: Yeah. So what kind of questions do you think potential doctoral candidates could ask to ensure that is something that the program facilitates.
Cheri Dodge Chin: That's a great question. I think that they should ask what is a cohort like do we ever meet in person? Do we do work together? How does the university foster relationships amongst cohort members? Because a lot of adult research does suggest that getting through things. Just think of the pandemic when we were all in isolation how much harder it was to get through just your work day.
Whereas. Pre and hopefully post pandemic when we have teams and people that we can really rely on that it's just easier to get through some of these hard times and going through a doctorate program is definitely a hard time. So I think asking questions about how well do people get along? Do they form long-term relationships?
How much support is there? What does the university do to [00:23:00] foster these relationships and help people to Form bonds between each other and supporting. And as much as most of us hate group work, because group work can be a pain in the, but it also is, does help formulation ships.
That's the only way in some circumstances that we even get to know the other people that are in the group. So group work, especially not great at group works. You don't have to rely on that one person who never seems to do anything really important as well for just building and
Venita Litvack: fostering. Those really.
Yeah, no, that's a good point. So what's next Sheree. I know you just said that you have already started your educational doctorate. That's so interesting, but what are your plans?
Cheri Dodge Chin: So one thing that at this time, because actually. Does not have any kind of accreditation process or a clinical doctorate for that reason, they don't consider it to be a terminal degree, which means that chances [00:24:00] are very slim to none that you'll be able to get a tenure.
Academic job with a clinical doctorate. For that reason, a clinical doctorate is great if you want to work in academia, but not get a tenured job. So if you want to work adjunct or part-time, or be a clinic director or any of that, Things. And at first that's what I thought I wanted to do in the long-term future.
Right now. I still work in the schools and I'm very happy to stay in the schools until I've put in, probably 30 years. But when I think about what's going to happen after the schools, I have envisioned myself in academia. And as I realized more and more that I would not probably be a candidate for a tenure job.
I was like what can I do. I've already talked about how a PhD is just out of the question. I just can't. I just can't do that. But luckily there are some educational doctorate programs out there that are set up in a similar way to the clinical doctorate, where they [00:25:00] are completely or primarily online.
They take about three years. And so I am. Going for that as my second doctorate degree. Is it overkill? Absolutely. Do I know for sure I'm going to work at academia? No, absolutely not. But I actually have some adjunct professor jobs and I'm using the money that I'm making from my adjuncting to pay for my educational doctorate, because like I said, I don't want to owe any money.
So I am taking my teaching jobs to pay for the next degree. And we'll see from there. I'm just thinking of the ten-year plan at this time.
Venita Litvack: So would you say that maybe as a speech language pathologist, who's considering getting a doctorate should bypass the clinical doctorate and do the educational one instead?
I think
Cheri Dodge Chin: some people should. I think if the goal is to work in academia completely. It actually is a pretty good way to go. Some difficulties with it though, are that most of [00:26:00] those education doctorates are not geared at all towards speech pathologist. And so people don't even know. What speech heads do in the program?
The program I'm in right now, actually most of the other people in my cohort are agriculture teachers which is like very different to me. And someone gave a presentation recently on individuals with disabilities because they, it had been assigned to them. And you can tell going through their presentation that they're like, I don't know what I'm talking about here.
So it was really. Very different beast. But if you're just goal-driven about, this is what I want to get a degree, a terminal degree, then I think bypassing is good. If you want to know more about speech pathology itself and how to help clients with. All these different speeches, things that we've learned about then the SLP D is a good thing.
And if you're just doing it to learn about research, I think that the SFPD is actually even a better way to go because the research is so focused towards our field.
Venita Litvack: Oh, that's a [00:27:00] really good distinction. Thank you for sharing that. What is the terminal degree? I hope I'm not the only person that
Cheri Dodge Chin: you're not the only one who has asked that a terminal degree is I can't exactly tell you, but it's basically, what's Asher feels is the tippy top of the.
And so like for universities to be accredited by Attia, they have to have a certain percent of their professors have to have a terminal degree. And those two terminal degrees that they will count are a PhD or an ed D if your university setting has less than X percent with a terminal degree, then it's not an accredited university.
Got it. Thanks. So for that reason, universities really want to attract people with the terminal degree so that they never have to worry about if they have a high enough percentage. Now there is, a lot of people have talked about how that may change over time, especially with less and less people able to get a PhD that not, that might not be sustainable and Ashleigh may change their stance on that and say anyone with a [00:28:00] doctorate, it doesn't have to be.
And ed D or a PhD, but for now, this is what their role.
Venita Litvack: Gotcha. If we look at the field of physical therapy, their doctorate that is now required as a clinical doctorate,
Cheri Dodge Chin: isn't it exactly right. And so that would not be considered a terminal degree because everyone gets it. The analogy I make for a lot of people who are like, what is a clinical doctorate?
I actually think that my mom was a dentist. She's a retired dentist. And then I have family members were doctors as well. And an MD or a DDS is a clinical doctorate. You're finishing school with the ability to work in a clinic to ask research questions, to be able to serve your clients, but not necessarily to go and then teach at a university level.
And the SLP D most SFPD programs also are not preparing you to teach at a university level. They're teaching you to just be an expert in your field. Got
Venita Litvack: it. But isn't that the point? [00:29:00] Isn't that the point though, if it's going to be accredited by Ashleigh, that you are an expert in your field, just playing devil's advocate here.
Cheri Dodge Chin: Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I want to universities do hire people with just a master's level degree. If they've shown that they're an expert in their field with only a master's. But they just, Ash has, certain standards about what a university needs beyond that.
Venita Litvack: Okay. All right. To be continued, right?
Cheri Dodge Chin: Right. And again, all this could change in the next, 10, 15 years. We don't know what's going to happen, but we just take things as the rules are at the moment. And run with
Venita Litvack: it, right? Exactly. Sherry, this has been super informative. I think I've only had one other guest who was pursuing their doctorate.
So I really appreciate you coming on and highlighting this topic. Do you have anything else to share before we wrap up today?
Cheri Dodge Chin: I think I was really surprised how much I still had to learn.
When [00:30:00] I went back to school, I knew I was going to learn about, recent evidence and how to do online research. But. Going back to school after being out of school for nearly 20 years, really helped me to reshape how I think and how I ask questions. And I feel like even though it was definitely a challenging time made even more so by the fact that the pandemic started right as I was starting my research and I had to scrap my research and start over again.
Yeah. It really was a time that I wouldn't want to undo it. Wasn't it. I felt like it was an important part of what is and continues to shape me as a person.
Venita Litvack: I love that Sherry, this has been so helpful. Where can everyone find a connect with you? If they're not already,
Cheri Dodge Chin: You can find me all over the internet under superpower speech.
So my blog, which is. Come in on 15 [00:31:00] years old, my social, my Instagram, my Facebook, all the things are superpower speech.
Venita Litvack: Awesome. Thank you again and until next time,
Cheri Dodge Chin: thank you.
